Gambling in Real Estate is a Risky Play – Why You Should Avoid It | Joel Friedland

Joel: Do you want to hear something really cynical? What’s that? My three rules of real estate when people asked me what are the three rules of real estate? This is gonna sound really bad. But this is what I’ve learned in 40 years. Everybody lies, everybody lies, everybody lies. And the worst lie is when you lie to yourself, because you try to convince yourself that something that isn’t right, is right. And that’s where you’re gambling and where you’re making the mistake. And so what I’m trying to do, I think the risk off and the whole concept of not gambling is just not lying to yourself and knowing who you are.

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Justin: What is up everybody? Welcome back to the science of flipping podcast. I am your host very excited to have a guest on today before we get to my guest. As always, this episode is brought to you by my main sponsor, minutepages.com. They are the only place you need to be going as a real estate investor for your professional website. If you want to 10x your lead flow, you need to make sure you have a minute pages website. Go to minutepages.com. Now to get yours.

Justin: All right, everybody. Welcome back to the episode. I have a colleague on this episode who him and I have been talking a little bit about some interesting topics about what’s the difference between gambling versus real estate investing. This gentleman has over 30 years of experience has built an incredible portfolio. Joel Friedland, how are you, my friend?

Joel: Doing great, nice to see you.

Justin: Good to see you as well. I appreciate you coming on to drop some wisdom, I like to call it. There’s a lot of listeners who may be 30 minutes into this game. And so I love having someone on that has seen a lot more than even I have. I’ve been in this 15 years, you’ve doubled that you’ve seen more recessions, the Great Recession, and so on, so forth. And we are definitely in a time of change, as you and I were just discussing, but why don’t we start with this? Why don’t we introduce you, I’ll allow you to do it. Give everyone some understanding of who you are, what you’ve done, what you’ve seen what you’ve gone through, and we’ll take it from there.

Joel: Sure. Well, when I graduated from college, I knew I wanted to be in real estate. And I was looking for a job and I thought I was going to be in residential real estate. I thought I’d be in multifamily, or apartments or something like that. And a very close friend of mine said, I have a buddy who owns an industrial real estate company. Would you consider talking to him about a job? I said, Yeah, sure. So I called this guy I’d never met him. His name was Milt Podolski. At the time he was 63, which is exactly how old I am. Now I keep comparing myself to my original mentor, and like, Oh, my God, I’m the age that he was, because I’ve been doing this for 40 years. And I went in, I met with him. And he said, So do you take no for an answer? And I said, I said, No, I tried to get what I want by convincing people and persuading people. He said, Okay, you’re hired. He says, now, we’re in the middle of a recession, it was 1981, interest rates were 17%. And he said, I’ve got about 15, empty buildings out of the 84 that my family owns. He said, You’re gonna go door to door and you’re gonna find the tenants. So I went into industrial parks not knowing anything. And I started going from one company to another, I’d walk in the door, and there’d be a receptionist, and I’d have to figure out what to say. So I’d say, hey, we have a building down the street that we’d like to lease, would you consider moving and she’d say, we’re not moving. She, the receptionist would rarely know what what they were talking about. So who’s the owner of the company, I’d like to talk to the owner, and someone would come out. And invariably, they’d say, come on back to my office, let’s talk. And I would sit with them and try to convince them that if they were ready to grow their business, let’s go let’s take a look at our building down the street. But at that time, what they would say to me was, Hey, kid, don’t you know we’re in a recession. We’re just barely holding on. We’re not doing anything we’re on hold. So during recessions, what happens to investment real estate and sort of my experience of going through four cycles as people go on hold?

Justin: Yeah. And I think there’s, you know, you and I run different models, and it’s really good for my audience to hear this right. Because there’s so much similarity. Everyone’s trying to figure out what they want to do. Do they want to wholesale? Do they want to flip do they want to multi units? Do they want to be the next Grant Cardone? and go, you know, 2,000-20,000 doors do they want to be you and go and get, you know, 300 million worth of industrial. So everyone’s trying to decide, but there’s similarities amongst all of it, right? One: financing, lending Two: syndicating three: ups and downs. Right? And so when my world of single family homes multi units in this time, there is a lot of people on hold. And I actually just did a podcast prior to this one talking about the one thing I know about me in most is we know when everyone else is on hold is when I want to take market share. Because the people that would typically be trying to acquire the same asset that I want to acquire, specifically, even this time of year, December, they’re on vacation. I literally have a good friend of mine does very well, every year investing. He’s done. He literally called me he’s like, Hey, me and my wife are done for the year. We’re like, we’re on literally, he’s in bail right now and the whole thing. God bless him. That’s what we do it for 100%. But now I’m like, Let me pour a little bit more gas on my fire right now, because he’s no longer in the game for the next two and a half weeks. Right? So I’m glad that you bring that up is because I think a lot of people need to understand. You’ve seen four of these things I’ve seen too. And it is most common for people to freeze, right? To hold tight to hang in there and just see what happens. What’s your best advice to that?

Joel: Well, okay, so here’s an interesting part of my background. I ran a real estate brokerage company when when I worked for this Milt Podolski, I was there for 10 years, and it was a family where he was the dad, there was a two sons and a daughter. And after 10 years, when I realized that they weren’t going to adopt me, and I wanted to be a partner in the business, I went and started my own business. And over the last 30 years, I have mentored about 70 brokers, who many of them have become buyers and owners of real estate. And the thing that I’ve learned is that there’s no wrong time to be a buyer, there’s a wrong time to buy the wrong property. So for me, it all comes down to due diligence. If you look at a property and you know, the market, and you figure out what what it’s worth, and what you think the markets doing, and what you think the property is going to do, even in the in the in the most crazy bubble, there are still deals, it’s just harder to find them. So what happens is we just dig in more. And what I’ve watched is, I’d say 20 of these people that I’ve mentored have become incredibly successful, they’re all multimillionaires. The other 50 are gone, they never made it in the business. And I’ve watched these 20 and they’re still buying things today, even though I find it to be the most difficult market I’ve ever seen to buy properties, the values are high. And there’s a gap between what a seller thinks it’s worth today, and what I’m willing to buy, or what my pricing level is, like three years ago, and I keep thinking, if somebody paid $2 million for a building, and they want to sell it to me for 3 million, I’m looking at the next year, all these predictions of recession and rates going up, it scares me. So we have to be sure of the property. That’s the key to it.

Justin: Yeah, and you’re in just for clarity purposes, just to give a little more feedback of your strength, you are much more in the industrial space than the single family home space not to say you’ve not done single family homes, it’s just that is really where you’ve built your massive amount of wealth. I bring that to light for you to a talk a little bit more about that. I think my audience has heard me enough for single family homes. But but also, again, I want to draw that parallel, without me really defining that he was in the industrial space. Most of you watching this either at Justincolby.tv, or listening to this on iTunes, would have thought he was talking about our residential space. He’s saying the same things using the same language drawing the same analogies. Right? It’s it’s quite literally the same. There’s just a function of how you utilize that asset right? How are you going to exit it? Why are you going to acquire it? And then how are you going to exit it? And so I just really wanted to highlight the fact that he’s actually in a different asset space typically, but resonates with all of us, including me, right as I’m buying. I just closed on another rental in Dayton, Ohio.

Joel: Great Town

Justin: The vacation capital of the world. Just kidding. You know, great town for especially a buy and hold. You’re not going to see a lot of appreciation. You’re not going to see a lot of depreciation or I guess depreciation for me, but you’re not going to see if it fall when the market shifts, great for that. Right? So let me ask you just because you did say it’s a great town, any particular reason you you like that town? Is it more personal or for business or what?
So my investors are very wealthy people, for the most part, everybody’s accredited. I’ve been doing this for a long time. So I have a lot of family offices, I have a lot of I have a few billionaires and multimillionaires who invest with me and people invest anywhere between, say, 25,000, if they’re just getting started to, let’s say, a million dollars per deal. And one of my biggest investors is a family. Two sisters were in their 70s and 80s. And they called me one day and they said, We need you to go look at an industrial building in Dayton that we own. And I said, Okay, so I drove from Chicago to Dayton as a favor to them. And I said, Well, it’s right on the highway. It’s right on 70, isn’t it the main road there. And I looked at this building, I said, it’s fantastic. You should keep it forever, because it’s always going to be a good building. So I drive around industrial parks. You know, every town has an industrial park, big cities have big ones, little cities, it’s usually called industrial drive. And I focus on small buildings, under a million dollars, 3 million dollars. Every town has them. And Dayton has a nice little industrial park. And that’s how I know it because I did a favor for one of my investors.

Justin: Yeah. And I like it for why you gave the same…again I keep drawing these parallels, because it’s important. You told those sisters to keep that building, because it will be a good building forever. It’s the same reason why I bought this house, solid house, it’ll be a great house forever, right? It’ll just be a great rental area. Great market, I’d call it a b minus neighborhood. Perfect, you know, price point. So I say that, again, to kind of bring up this analogy of like, everyone’s trying to decide what vertical they want to be in what you know whether again, it’s the Grant Cardone, I’ve spent a lot of time with Grant recently, he continues to impress upon me doing a 200 unit deal is as easy as doing a single family deal. (Joel: Easier). Say what? (Joel: easier, it’s easier). See, I just again, being in I keep pushing back on him, like you have to have, it’s just a single house. It’s 125 grand, here’s 125 million, right? And he’s like, Dude, it’s, it’s just extra zeros. Everything else is the same. And so obviously, you’re echoing this. But again…

Joel: I like I like Midwestern towns, the Midwest is great, because the cap rates, if you’re looking at that are much better here than they are in New York, New Jersey. And in California, where you’re seeing ridiculously low cap rates. I couldn’t, my investors and I could not tolerate the cap rates that they’re not getting out there.

Justin: And in it’s, so I did the vast majority of my career spent in Phoenix. And as a whole Phoenix is an incredible, incredible city for investing. Right? There’s all these different qualifiers for the major sports teams to the growth opportunity to the industries that are coming there, etc, right. But man trying to buy a rental there over the last two years, versus buying a rental I bought nine in Birmingham, Alabama. Like it’s just not even comparable relative to the return on your investment, right? Whether you want to use cap rate, which is more commercial and industrial used or cash on cash return like you just can’t beat it. Now would I rather a property in Phoenix, mostly yeah, there’s a lot more growth and over the time, there will be a lot more appreciation. But when you’re just talking about a good solid, safe investment that is safe as you can get it. The Midwest, what I even call the sunbelt states, right. I just love it. You know, (Joel: Rust Belt state), the Rust Belt states.

Joel: Everybody’s clamoring to be in the Sunbelt, except for us. There’s an there’s an opening in the Midwest, it’s a great place.

Justin: There is, like I’ll give you an example. I was looking at a duplex today. I think the seller wanted 85,000 in Cleveland, Ohio. It’s currently currently without any improvements running for 1400 a month. I mean, you just don’t find that and, you know, anywhere.

Joel: Try San Francisco.

Justin: No, not a chance. Right? You’re not You’re not getting a parking spot on the street for $85,000 a year. Right. You know, so. So let’s dive in a little bit about your expertise and what you’ve been able to do, which I think is so incredible, and the opportunity that this this real estate market poses for what you do and in potential listeners on what they could potentially do here in the industrial space.

Joel: Sure. Well, if anybody has any questions about industrial, I’ve been doing this for 40 years and I can answer the questions people call me. I’m a member of a group called The Society of industrial and office realtors, and it’s a group of very experienced and successful industrial real estate people, a lot of them are brokers, they represent tenants, they represent companies looking to lease out or sell properties. And I have access through making one phone call to any industrial broker in the United States. And I use that very often, usually, at least once or twice a week, I’m doing something some kind of favor for a client or an investor of mine. What I do that’s different than most of my friends who are in the multifamily space is I deal with one tenant at a time. Our buildings are single tenant and their net lease, which means the tenant pays the taxes, the insurance, the maintenance, and the utilities, the management is easy. And tenants sign long term leases, five years, seven years, 10 years. So I’ve decided that that I like to stick with what I do, I know it really well. And so I’m hyper focused on industrial, and I’m hyper focused on the Chicago market. And that’s it. There’s 1,300,000,000 square feet of industrial and 20,000 companies here that they’re in industrial. It takes a long time to break in, because it’s sort of like an old boys network. The brokers and the owners know each other. And if you get started, I made a call when I was a young kid to someone who’s very experienced, and he said, Who is this? What do you want? I don’t have any slam. Right? Now I’m that guy. I’m the old guy who has all the properties. And when the young people call me, I know that usually one out of four will make it and the other three will be gone. And it’s hard to be serious with people who aren’t in the business quite yet. But my whole focus has become safety, safety, safety, I am into low debt. Sometimes I buy properties with a group of investors. I let like 15 investors know I found something and they put in 100,000 or 25,000. So I syndicate the deal, buy it all cash, and then we lease it to a tenant. That’s usually a manufacturer. And manufacturers are sticky. Because what they do is they put machines in and they have people working there like 60 employees, they don’t want to move because they don’t want to lose their employees by moving to the other side of town. And they don’t want to unhook all these machines and unscrew the bolts and move everything. It’s very expensive to do. So industrials, a strange niche. I would say that, overall, there’s more industrial square footage in this country than retail and multifamily combined. People don’t necessarily know that. And if you drive by some of these giant industrial buildings on the tollway there these precast buildings are 35 feet clear and they’re full of companies like Amazon and Wayfair. And that’s not what we do we buy the older buildings there instead of precast, beautiful walls, they’re bricks, they’re not quite as pretty but they’re steady. We buy them to keep them but this statistic is for us, every fourth building we buy as a flip within six months. (Justin: Interesting). Yeah, it’s fascinating. The companies in the area that make products need a place to make them it’s a tool for their business. It’s not really real estate to them. So they’ll pay a premium of let’s say 30% over what an investor would pay. So one story as an example. I was looking to buy a property from the gas company, it was a 40,000 foot building on a six acre site, and probably the most dangerous neighborhood in Chicago. There’s a shooting map, and it shows little dots, this person died, this person just was hurt and went to the hospital. This property was there, but I knew it had value. And I did a tremendous amount of due diligence and realize that the price we were paying was fair. And I called an industrial broker friend of mine, just to ask him a question about it as I was doing my due diligence, and he says, Hey, I got a buyer. And the buyer was a guy who is in the pork packing, packing business. He literally brings in chopped up hogs. And he’s got 120 guys in there, chopping them up and making them into ribs and pork chops. And he needed a building in that neighborhood for a specific reason. And he came and saw it the day after I talked to this broker and he said, I’ve got to buy this. I must have it. And I just had a contract. I hadn’t even bought it yet. I said well, I’ll sell you the contract and he said, would you take a million and a half over your contract? I said, Yeah, sure. (Justin: I guess we can make that happen). Yeah. Now it turns out that’s not how it works. Because he did his due diligence and ended up saying to me, I can’t pay anywhere near that much. So there are people who do good due diligence. They’re on all sides of a deal. It can hurt us, and it can help us.

Justin: Sure. Yeah. Did you end up selling it to them just at a lower value?

Joel: We did. We became very close friends, because he got a great deal. He bought it for 600,000 more. So he calls all the time to thank me for.

Justin: So did you assign it like you would in single family space?
Exactly the same thing was an assignment. I had to get approval from the seller, which was the local gas company for the states of Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin. (Justin: Interesting). Yeah. So I had to deal with their lawyer. And I said, Hey, can I assign this? And they said, No. And I said, Well, then I’m not going to buy it. It took a big risk. Yeah. They said, Okay, you can assign it.

Justin: So be willing to walk away is the lesson there? Because you’re taking a big risk. When you say, well, then I gotta go.

Joel: Right. The alternative would have been to buy it, and then sell it to him after we bought it.

Justin: But she still would have made money, but closing costs and everything else and fees.

Joel: yeah, yeah, it’s better to sell the contract. For sure.

Justin: Again, parallels to industrial. So let’s, let’s talk about something I found pretty cool. When you now were talking briefly before, which is the parallels and or differences between investing in real estate and gambling? (Joel: Oh, that is my favorite topic). Where would you like to start?

Joel: Well, when I was younger, I raised millions of dollars and bought dozens of buildings with debt. And I went through four separate downturns. And two of those downturns nearly literally put me I would say, into a mental or an emotional depression. Because I had a lot of risk on. I had a lot of mortgages in 2008, which is when industrial went bad. I had seven banks. I had 60 investors who had loaned me money. And I thought I was rich. And then Lehman Brothers went out of business and the economy tanked. And I went from rich to being so far in debt, that it felt like I was underwater, and someone was holding me down and trying to drown me. And I decided that I was going to fight it out and not go bankrupt, like a lot of my friends had. And a lot of my friends were, by the way in residential and went bankrupt, because they had too much debt as well, when things went bad. So I fought through it, and survived it. But I literally can tell you that there were days when I thought about ending my life, I thought that I had blown all of this money. And that I was letting all these people down. And then I I’d have to start over after going bankrupt. And there’d be this big article in the paper, hey, Joel is in deep trouble. What a disaster. I avoided that. But I didn’t avoid a depression. And what I realized after coming out of that is that I don’t have the tolerance for the risk that I was taking it that time. And I had to figure out strategies to take less risk, because I didn’t want to end up broke. So I look at it this way. I think I was a real estate gambler. And I think a lot of people don’t know that there’s a line between investing in gambling. There’s an organization that’s called gamblers anonymous. And I have some very close friends who are real serious gamblers, mostly sports, gamblers and casino gamblers. And I’ve been to the meetings, and I can tell you that I fit in. When they were talking about they read 20 questions. Are you a gambler? And if you if you answer yes to seven of them, you’re officially a compulsive gambler. And I answered yes to more than seven of them. And I looked at it and I look back at my my career and I said, shit, I’m not an investor, I’m a gambler. And what I do now is I talk to my investors about the fact that I am not a gambler, and I’ve given that up. And the way that you give it up is you have to do great due diligence. You have to make sure your debt makes sense. You just have to not be taking risk. You have to do everything possible not to end up back on the couch with the depression because you’re underwater and someone’s pushing you under with too much debt or too much risk. I do what’s called risk off. That’s my that’s my philosophy. And this applies whether you’re buying multifamily one house two houses, apartment buildings, industrial office buildings doesn’t matter. There’s a book written by a guy named Kirk Kerkorian, one of the richest billionaire real estate guys. He owned casinos in Vegas and movie studios. The title of the book is the gambler. And he blew it all later in life. It was too late and he couldn’t get it back. When I say he blew it all, he lost maybe 8 billion and only had 2 billion left. (Justin: Fair). You know, it’s all relative. Right?

Justin: Right.

Joel: Yeah. If you have 80,000, and you only have 20,000 left feels real bad.

Justin: That’s right. Yeah, for sure.

Joel: Thats one of my favorite topics is that gambling issue?

Justin: Yeah. And I think there was a lot of people that did that over the last two years, specifically, right, I’m a part of some masterminds and some high level stuff, where, because I did make it through 2008. I took my chips off the table, or risk off, for the most part for the last two years. And I ended up wholesaling most of my deals that were absolutely deals, and even to my friends, and they’d say, Why do you keep selling these to me, I’m making 80 grand while you’re making 20. Because I knew today, what we’re all going through, was going to happen, I just, I thought it was gonna happen during COVID. It didn’t. And so I just said, it’s gonna happen, it’s inevitable. At some point, we’re gonna have this. So I just took all my risk off the table, right, and I don’t have any risk. I mean, I’m buying rentals. But that’s calculated debt to your point, I understand the interest rate versus the rental rate versus the market versus you know. But I would tell you, I think, in my opinion, there’s always a way to spin the data to your favor, you can always go tell a private lender or someone that hey, this is the numbers is going to be amazing. And that’s where I think people get in a lot of trouble is when they’re trying to sell the deal, the deal should essentially sell itself, like the numbers should ring very, very true. In a very low, conservative number. I don’t like taking the risk to say, once I bring it up to value, once I bring it to wherever and make it performing, then it will be a good deal. It should be a good deal when you buy it.

Joel: You want to hear something really cynical (Justin: What’s that?). My three rules of real estate when people asked me what are the three rules of real estate? This is gonna sound really bad. But this is what I’ve learned in 40 years. Everybody lies, everybody lies, everybody lies. And the worst lie is when you lie to yourself, because you try to convince yourself that something that isn’t right, is right. And that’s where you’re gambling and where you’re making the mistake. And so when I say to new a new investor, these are my three rules, they almost immediately invest with me because they say in my business, those are the three rules also. It’s universal. It’s really something how that works. And so what I’m trying to do, I think the risk off and the whole concept of not gambling, is just not lying to yourself and knowing who you are. If you are a gambler, and you’re willing to lose everything, go in and say hey, I’m going to lose everything, and you better tell your wife. Because that’s the other thing when people start taking these risks. They don’t tell their wife, they don’t tell their their closest people, they secretly get in trouble. And then they have to, like, open up and say, let me tell you what just happened. I’m so sorry, I’m in such trouble. So if you can’t tell your wife, and you can’t tell your your closest smart advisors, what you’re doing, you are gambling. That’s the definition. It’s when you lie, and you take risk, and you’re afraid of it. Because you know that if you tell someone else they’re gonna call bullshit on you.

Justin: Yeah. So, interestingly enough, as I was engaged, I went through the toughest deal that I’ve ever gone through. It wasn’t the biggest financial loss, although it was a loss. There was so many nuances of like, just, it was just ugly. And it was financially ugly. But also there was some personal friends involved. And it just got really, really ugly. And I told her all about it was happening. Because we were engaged about to be married. This is literally like two months before we got married. Right? And it was one of the greatest things I ever did. Because it also showed, I don’t want to say loyalty, as if she’s like, the, you know, but she just supported and she kept in my corner, and she just never made it a thing. And you know, she kind of had that attitude, like, Hey, you’re in business, and you’ll get through it type of thing. And so it was just funny how you bring that up. And it definitely relates to me in the sense of like, I totally could have kept it from her. And that weighed in that stress and that anxiety would have weighed on me, and who knows how happy we are very happy and who knows if that would have actually been the case if I would have, you know, tunneled that down and you know, everyone in this game to finish my thought. If you’re in the game long enough, you’ve done bad deals, I don’t care you know who you are. To your point lying to yourself is the worst part, you know, kind of finding that like, Why did I do that bad deal? Oh, I forced a square peg in a round hole. I just wanted it so bad. I forced it or why did I do that deal? And why did I structure this or whatever. So it’s something that everyone has to come to terms with, if you’re going to be in this game is at some point, you will have a deal go bad. And you’ll have to rectify it with yourself above all else.

Joel: And that affects mental health. (Justin: Sure) You’re mentally healthy, I think if you can be honest with yourself. And you’ve got to be curious, you got to ask all the right questions to make sure you make a good judgment when you ignore asking those questions, because you want to do something without being super careful about it. That causes literally I unfortunately, today, this is terrible. I, one of the young brokers in our Chicago industrial brokerage community committed suicide on Saturday, and generals this week. And mental health is the thing, you got to stay mentally healthy, you have to know who you are. And if you’re not a gambler, you shouldn’t be gambling, and you shouldn’t be lying to yourself or anybody else that’s close to you. I’ve got a another really close friend who’s in real trouble, his wife filed for divorce, because he put a second mortgage on his house to go invest in some real estate deals. And he didn’t tell her, and then he lost. Then he had to tell her. And she said, Oh my god, like, what’s our marriage, if you can’t tell me what you’re doing?

Justin: I mean, that’s my philosophy. And again, I’m not gonna put any judgment on anyone. It’s not for me, or you or anyone to judge. But I got married old enough, I got married at 39, I was a late bloomer, I enjoyed my 30s. And I just have a different perspective. I’ve had enough people like yourself and others that I’ve been able to watch during my 30s and have seen scenarios, like you described, and I said, I’m not going to want to do that when I’m married, I’m not going to. And so I think it’s really important to, I mean, now we’re talking a little bit more about marriage, but, you know, just business is a marriage. Right. And I think that is what we as entrepreneurs have to also realize is, you have two marriages, one your significant other, and then one to your business. And you need to have those worlds, in my opinion collide in a good way, in a mingle in a good way, you don’t have your business life and your personal life, it is one life. And I say that a lot like you have one life, right. And so you need to be able to one way or another. Again, I don’t want to say collide as if it’s opposing, but like, intermingle the two. And that’s important, basically, about communication. Right? I will tell you, and you maybe have gone through the season, but I’ve been traveling more for work than I have in a decade. Someone that I’m now at a place of influence in the space of real estate that I’m asked to be on stages, I’m putting forth the best effort to provide value to my current tribe, all these different things. It’s creating travel. So I have to be open to my wife about here’s, if we want X what I need to do to go achieve X are these things, if you don’t want X earn, okay, not having it, then I don’t have to do these. So where does it stand? And then I can get feedback, right? But all in all, it doesn’t matter what’s happening, we need to treat our business as a marriage, and, you know, intermingle our actual personal marriage into it and do good business and have good relationship, because we’re only here for a short amount of time. So I just would echo everything you’re saying there?

Joel: Yeah. I think that living a good life, is why I do real estate. I don’t, I don’t look at real estate as a way to make a living. I look at it as a way to build relationships and to make healthy decisions. The people that I care about. And I know my investors and they know me, we know each other’s families, or at least we know about each other’s families. And I believe strongly what you just said is the most important thing in any deal or in any business. It’s figuring out how to be a forgiver because everybody makes mistakes around you and you can’t be this this angry ranting raving person. It’s very, very tough to be that way and maintain relationships, and other parts of relationships that matter. Really drive me to continue doing what I’m doing. If it was just for the real estate alone. I’d stop. Sure. It’s about the people.

Justin: It’s a people business. Yeah. And I love that. That’s what drives my fuel. I’m a people person. So I have a podcast got to interview great folks like yourself, right? I mean, that’s what it’s all about.

Joel: Yeah, I think that’s that is what it’s all about.

Justin: Well to wrap up, I’d love for people to get a hold of you however they can. Where would you like them to find you?
britproperties “b r i t” properties.com (britproperties.com). We had a property management business. And we had a property manager named Brad. And we had to name the company. I sold my my bigger company and ended up starting a smaller company later on. And we had to come up with a name. And Brad said, what are we going to call it? I said, it’s Brett for Brad really is terrific. For that, that’s great. So look at that. britproperties.com

Justin: Right on. Well, Joe, I appreciate your time today. Thank you for giving some love to the audience. Hopefully, you keep rockin, you obviously have something very special. So thank you for taking your time today. Really important to us here at the Science flipping, and I appreciate you.

Joel: It’s been my pleasure. Thank you.